Curse

stoelen · Dec 06, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaths

@lorekeeper

4) U are misunderstanding something. It was not just the rank that encouraed ppl to play HA. Rank is as well an important part in HA.

Their are some minor changes made in GW that made HA for the succes of a PvP guild unimportant.

The flash of ur Name in all servers made a player or a guild famouse. It was the only option to show the entire GW community the Power of the Guild. Ppl would say their was the GvG Ladder. But at thouse times the GvG Ladder was not an ingame source. U had to know the weblink to the ladder and watch which team, was leading the ladder.
Right now the observer is a source, to watch GvGs. U can see the guildrank the players and everything else u want over the observer. Even the minor change that in a PvP match the Guildname and the Guildrank showing before the fight made big changes.

In the good old days their was winning the favor for the server. This looks unimportant for many ppl, but it is indeed very important. To win the favor for Europe or America made thouse guilds famouse in the PvE part of the game.
Ít was funny to stay in the Temple of Ages and ppl said hey Deaths win the Favor for us.
Because theire were waiting hords of PvE players to farm UW or FOW. Then the other Elite missions come and it was less important to win the favor. Finally the favor system entirly changed. Good for PvE players, this is out of question, but winning HoH was less important now.

In replacement for this system the Xunlai Tournament House came. Most PvE players are watching the progress of GvGs so they can now gamble in the Xunlai Tournament House.

In the old days the only titel ppl had was the Hero titel track. U could show of with ur E-mote. Now everyone can show of with any kind of titel.

In the old days their were maps with matches 6 teams vs 6 teams. It was unique. Their was alot of ganking. But it was unique. Now nearly all maps are 1 team vs 1 team. Dont misunderstand me now but i can play 1 Team vs 1 Team in GvG or TA. If we watch the maps of HA most of thouse are from HA converted to other PvP ( Even into PvE Tombs. Come on this really sucks).maps or some are converted from other maps to HA.

The most important question is, Whats left in HA?

Beside the PvP envoirment u can get in other PvP-parts of GW,

the E-motes.

The E-mote is the only unique archievment of HA. Not the Fame or the Rank u get, its just the E-mote thats left to be unique in HA.

So getting back to the toppic why old players wont come back to HA. Most of them got their desired E-motes. And i would be really pissed if their would be some flashy E-motes for other archievemnts. It would destroy HA entirly.

I dont think that A-Net made thouse changes to destroy HA. But thouse minor changes over time made HA for most players unimportant and many ppl lost the desire to play HA.

Edit: Ppl would say their is still the chest where the Mini Hero or anything else can drop. But if i want one i can buy that item. So its not really a unique archivemnet. ANd if i want money i can still sell golden flames of Balthasar. PPl would be surprised, when they would know, how many elite PvP-players are playing PvE as well. And they are playing PvE succsesfull.

@6am sry posted this edit before i could read ur post.

I definatly agree on this point, I think this is the main concern about HA these days, I think everyone who posts on here remembers the spam of whispers when you won halls. All those pve players whispered you with compliments and thanks. You had something to play for, not just fame. Everyone has enough fame these days, and yes people left ha becouse GvG was getting bigger and getting more appreciation as HA. This was becouse of the changes that involved in PVE, The favor system boosted the HA system. You played for the Fame, to become popular. Just as in real life you try to be the best at things to get recognation, to let people know you, be famous. This was why old school HA worked.

I think if you bring back old school HA it wouldn't bring back players as it isn't as rewarding as it used to be. You aren't getting millions of whispers with compliments, You are getting nothing but silly fame.. In GvG if you win, people know you. You get famous by playing GvG in a good guild, In Ha that is no longer. We or Anet should come up with a new system to bring back what was in the old days, the being famous part if u win HoH often. This would bring back alot of players and i think(not sure on this one ofcourse, u can never be sure) would also change the meta again, to expirimental builds and fun builds. There will always remain gimmick builds, but i think it would get reduced a little.

About the poll, I voted for Old HoH from back in the days, just i think we need to come up with a new system for it. The cape thing could work..

Maybe make a new sort of PvE thing like uw/fow, some kind of new dungeun where you can only get in with favor or something like it, don't know.. just an idea.

Divinus Stella · Dec 06, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I dont think pure altar holding will work anymore, its bad enough already trying to get a team with 3 monks off an altar with all the insane monk skills added since HA was changed and weapons like weapon of warding, it will only get worse if people know the only objective is to keep the ghostly standing.

People will just abuse the system and itll be back to hugely over defensive builds with just 1 purpose.

However i dont like capture points or relic runs at all, both are lame objectives, relic runs are boring until the last minute and are plagued by the stuck bug and cap points often degenerate into pure ganking towards the end.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Dec 06, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

it will only get worse if people know the only objective is to keep the ghostly standing.

Possibly, but in some ways it will get better. You will no longer HAVE to bring a water ele, or HAVE to bring a speed boost on two people.

That was why the old HA altar holding was so great, there were many gimmicks around that kept these holding builds in check. Bloodspike + OOA iway was sure to take any holding team out of halls if the players are competent enough.

God Apprentice · Dec 11, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

Possibly, but in some ways it will get better. You will no longer HAVE to bring a water ele, or HAVE to bring a speed boost on two people.

That was why the old HA altar holding was so great, there were many gimmicks around that kept these holding builds in check. Bloodspike + OOA iway was sure to take any holding team out of halls if the players are competent enough.

Yeah even though the diversity was really an overload of gimmicks versus balance, HA was definately more fun when IWAY ruled the earth. Back then I could come in maybe face an IWAY, ViM, Bloodspike, Rangerspike, Randomway, Balance right from UW. Every UW now is thumpers and eles. Plus I liked the old HoH map, when you had multiple teams fighting to get the bridge to come down to get altar area access.

Riotgear · Dec 11, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

New KOTH is much better than old KOTH. I'm never going to shed a tear for the loss of retarded holding builds vs. Ghostly stacked with SoC/Stability standing on an altar with 20 meteor showers and well of the profane on it.

That said, the other two objectives blow. Relic run is ruined by bad movement code and the worst scoring system ever. Capture points is boring.

I'm not sure what to advise as a solution though. The variety in objectives is a good thing because it hurts one-dimensional builds that can't do anything but exploit a single play mode, and should probably be maintained.

Necromas · Dec 11, 2007, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I actually like how it works right now I guess.

Ya, Zergway and other FotM teams are gimmicky, but for people like me who are rank 1 and not in a good pvp guild, it beats the crap out of the randomway you get from trying to PuG balanced as a rank 1. The best part is that it still looses to a skilled balanced team so you can't really whine too much about it.

I can just imagine getting into a good guild eventually, and having plenty of fun playing against other balanced teams and getting a chuckle from taking out zergway teams.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Dec 12, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Yeah even though the diversity was really an overload of gimmicks versus balance, HA was definately more fun when IWAY ruled the earth. Back then I could come in maybe face an IWAY, ViM, Bloodspike, Rangerspike, Randomway, Balance right from UW. Every UW now is thumpers and eles. Plus I liked the old HoH map, when you had multiple teams fighting to get the bridge to come down to get altar area access.

Yea, believe it or not these builds actually improved HA.

Kyp Jade · Dec 12, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

Possibly, but in some ways it will get better. You will no longer HAVE to bring a water ele, or HAVE to bring a speed boost on two people.

That was why the old HA altar holding was so great, there were many gimmicks around that kept these holding builds in check. Bloodspike + OOA iway was sure to take any holding team out of halls if the players are competent enough.

Im going to knock you on two points.
You dont HAVE to bring a water ele now. The only reason water eles are so predominat is because build designers are far to lazy to put snares elsewhere, and its easy to devote it to one character, and throwing a spike skill on him.

You dont have to bring two run skills, not with make haste or windborn speed in the game (although windborn needs a serious buff to see play ever again). Most teams fit a make haste somewhere to allow skillbar diversity elsewhere.

---

OoA is imba, but it wasnt impossible to hold against.
Bloodspike teams scooped to dual CG teams that were the predominant holding archetype.

I agree the relic run in its implementation is total bs. Ive posted elsewhere better ways to implement it.
Cap point map needs a serious overhall. You need more shrines, and you need more ways to split.

Go back to altar holding only and you will see pleanty of rt spike teams in tombs again.

the spartan elite · Dec 12, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

making it altar holding would just give more creative builds a chance. rit spike couldnt get a spike through 2 cg or 2 mesmer builds lol. the only reason it even works atm is because people are forced to run builds with not so much shut down and interupts since it isnt so necesary to fame farm. I mesmer and when me and my guild get king of the hill and there is rit or rspike on 1 of the team, it isnt all that hard to mess there spike over to the point where it cant kill our ghost, imagine if people start running dual cg

Kyp Jade · Dec 13, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

I actually think keeping a rotation is required to keep builds in check, and to help prevent against gimmicks. Giving balance builds multiple requirements is part of the fun in build design anyway. Most people just copy your guilds build anyway spartan, but lucky for me most cant run it worth a damn, and ball up in ward v harm anyway.

CG is ftw btw, so many caster based pressure teams I dont know why more people havent adopted a more active shutdown role like the CG ranger.

In anycase, there are some serious issues with the current rotation of maps, cap pts being the most broken, koth actually being fine. I've stated the relic run before, But I will restate. just to be complete.

KoTH is fine, no changes really needed, if a team can hold up to the pressure of two teams for 4 minutes I dont see the problem, no one should be required to hold for the entire match just to win, and interupt wars is not somethign I want to see again, especially with song of conc, I spend half my time watching for song and not pressuring properly. It would be worse if it was old school altar cap style, I wouldnt be suprised at all to see two songs in holding builds. No NO leave koth as is plz.

Relic run needs two minor changes.
FIRST, remove cap last to win, this is a very stupid mechanic, and should even be removed on unholy temples, and sacred temples when thats brought back (plz plzplz bring sacred back). Cap first should give the point, dont base the entire match around one runners faster connection to the server.
SECOND, put in a win mechanic for the first 20 relics capped wins. This really encourages people to body block and snare, I get tired of watching 8-8-8 HoH matches.

as for cap points. There are several things wrong with the cap pts mechanic.

FIRST, you res on a shrine. You wouldnt think thats a problem, well when your holding and your full on ganked by some noob iway team its a problem, because the three people that resed on the shrine die on the shrine. Resing mechanic needs a big change. The only strategy against being ganked is to run off and split, well thats hard to do dead.

SECOND, there needs to be at LEAST one more shrine for a 3 way cap point. Shouldnt be to hard to do this, just put one where the chest spawns, done.

THIRD, not critical, but would be nice if there were straight paths between the outlying shrines, and not having to go through the center.

Btw, bring back sacred temples?
-----
also if you really want to town down ganking, the playerbase needs to tripple, the scrub teams need more filtering outbefore they reach halls, last few weeks, everytime Im in HoH the same iway team ganks us. When I obs, I always see an iway team ganking the holding team. Really these guys need to be filtered out more and not skip from fetid to halls.

----
edit x 2

oh yea, I had forgotten this change for the relic run, but the map design itself is slightly unfair because in a 1v1 match, the blue team can 3 man block the red team, not the runner, the relic itself, and nothing really to prevent this outside heavy aoe.

Ka Tet · Dec 25, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

The best thing that could be done to add balance and re-invigorate HA is to replace the AB maps with Kill Count maps. That would require true balanced builds. Thumpways AoEways and IWAYs would come under control b/c they would lose their edge on KC maps, and true spike builds would be kept in check by KotH.
As far as HoH goes, I don't think there will ever be a perfect solution as to what to do there. The current style of rotating objectives seems to work best, b/c it discourages BuildWars.

Kyp Jade · Dec 25, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

One thing I did like about kill count is it did make teams think about snares more than today. Today most team just pack ward foes and shock and expect that to be enough. And it usually is enough since u only need it for the last 20 seconds of HoH map. However in KC a LOT of kills are scored by snaring a straggler and exploding the guy.

On the other hand, a lot of people FAILED hard at kill count tactics

Killed u man · Dec 26, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

No, Kill count is retarded, it's pretty much: Find the most retarded team, spam aoe/deepfreeze, win... Kill count isn't the solution (Not even to mention the flaws in the previous one, hex pressure CAN'T get kills, Spoil Victor still doesn't count as Dmg towards your team, occasing where a bloodspike didn't get the kill (life stealing), etc...)

Old school holding was better in the way that you had a reason to play till the very last second, condition was that your monks didn't fall asleep, and let the ghostly die. Now, if a team holds 4 minutes (3.5, 30 seconds run to center, so 1 point = freebee), it's autowin. IF blue team loses altar at 7 points, it's a guaranteed win for whoever caps it first. The team that didn't cap, doesn't have the time to kill the second ghostly, and than cap themselves. So they either can resign, leaving the other Non-blue at center, and a 1v1 holding scenario, which is guaranteed win... Or they gank either team.

Either way, current KoTH needs a change. Sure, it isn't as bad as Cap and Relic Run, but still, old-school holding was actually a real fight till the last second.

As for people complaining about interupt wars: Interrupt wars required ALOT, and I will repeat that for the thumpers/fire eles reading this topic: ALOT, ALOT, ALOT, ALOT harder than: random click someone center, spam 1-2-3-4-1-2-5-6-3-5... Yes, it's ooh so challanging playing a fire ele...

Face it, old school holding did require ALOT more active work, can you believe you actually had to find the guy on the enemy team putting song up? Wow, that's insanely hard, compared to the current "just-pick-some-random-target-and-everyone-will-die-anyways"-meta. Examples are found easily: Brainless spamming of "Cry of Frustration", every team just spamming "Ward against Harm" (fire is anywhere on the map, so it doesn't rly matter were your harm is...), All the fire eles spamming their skills on recharche till the're out of energy/fingers bleed.

And once again, I find it really sad that some people just pick statements out of thin air, such as the old-school holding sucked cuz of hyper-defensive builds statements.

So please, can the Hyper-Defensive, Bullcrap stop please?

We all know there were some hyper-defensive builds in the past, but problem here was NOT Old-School-Holding style. The problem here was 1 skill balance every 4 months.
Dual Para Holding, jaggedway, SoMW were the most common ones, ALL of them could have been "nerfed" with touching only 1skill/mechanic. (Paragons at NF release: no need to say more, Signet of Mystic Wrath: Dmg reduction, Jaggedway: Jagged Bones nerf)

elektra_lucia · Dec 26, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

I think that if the scores are 6 - 4 - 0 and there is not time for the team with 0 to win if they held permanently, that team should be kicked out!

Possibly a bigger bonus for the team holding.

Relic run is a crock of shit. Remove it. Really there isn't much you can do if you get full ganked by some kanker kebab knab.

Cap points is wank too, but I like it in the 1v1 maps (just not HoH). I really think it's uber

So just change HoH...

courtyard is kanker wank gank. That should be fixed. Whatever though a-net need to be sodomized with electric batons at 500 thousand vaults. How hard would it be for them to change HoH for a weekend, maybe each weekend a different mechanic?

I don't mean, change it and put in a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing double fame thing either... What's with them doing that? HAI WE R GOIN 2 C IF U LYK THIS BUT LYK WE WILL GIVE DOUBLE FAEM WHICH GIVS NO ACURATE RESULTS ANYWAYS.

....Gtfo.

kurwa...

P.S. I don't think he was saying kill count is good, just it had good things about it (which I agree); however, if he is actually supporting kill count - then he should think about the gank!

Horace The Great · Jan 04, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

At this moment the poll says 77,5 % of the voters like HoH changed.
I would like a reply on this from someone from Anet that is on this forums, or did someone already do that?

shoogi · Jan 04, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Killcount had it's chance and it turned up as a huge failure, I can't see why it should be re-implemented.

Legally · Jan 09, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

As Horace says... Why isnt some1 from anet writing? we kinda know they dont care anymore but..
Are they not even gonna pretend to care ? wtf

Only way to fix HA is to get OLD players back,
And ofcourse fix this RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing shitty mechanics.

(Bye)

jana_the_stranger · Jan 13, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

i prefer the 3 objectives above the old Hold. The only thing i dont like is capture points

But only when its 1 vs 1 there has to be a change cause blue can hold to easy. Maybe change it when its 1vs1 that blue have to come from the yellow said and has to try to cap aswell.
Same for capture points where blue has a big advantage cause they are so close to the middle and there own base is also closer to the middle.
Same with relicrun where its to easy to block the relic so red even cannot take it anymore.

Takida · Jan 13, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

HA Needs Altar Holding back..

I think that ha need ppl to come back to make it work again.
And making it Altar Holding will bring some back, trust me.
Plus current HoH is just so unfun, Makes less Diversity in builds.

Hello Anet? Write something in the thread?

Show us that you care..

Gah.. Bye..

God Apprentice · Jan 13, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Relic running fails on so many levels.